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Talk:Story : Decisions
Not so idle regione discussion So how do regiones and moving between them actually work? My understanding is that each regio level is perhaps better expressed as an inflatable skin. It has a perimeter (the 2D outside edge) but also a 'floor' (beneath which lies the lower level or the mundane world). If there is another higher level overlaying it then it also has a sort of 'ceiling' creating by the next inflatable skin, although that ceiling will only cover the parts of the regio that are overlaid by the higher level. Does anyone have any problem with this analogy? (Other than the fact that the layers explicity also occupy the same space).--Corbonjnl 13:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC) To further clarify, since the skins all occupy the same space, the ceiling and floor skins aren't a vertical dimension component. Rather they are a 'deeper' or 'shallower' component through the regio layers. --Corbonjnl 01:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC) So then what is a regio 'boundary'. I would consider this to be any part of the inflatable skin, be it perimeter, floor or ceiling. Does anyone disagree with this?--Corbonjnl 13:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Now there are two ways to cross a regio boundary. One, if you can see into a different level (up or down) then you have the ability to cross the boundary. In other words, if you can see through the skin you can walk through the skin, be it perimeter, floor or ceiling. The other, is by following a specific path or ritual. This I would call a 'doorway' between levels, and is most likely somewhere around the perimeter. (There is a third way, by accident, and one who can pass through in either of the first two ways can lead others across.)--Corbonjnl 13:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Corbon and I have spent the best part of several hours talking about this, mostly because we see the way regiones, and more specifically the way the boundaries between regione levels, working in fundemantally different ways, which affects movement between the layers. What is plain is that the differences we see are ones which have caused some fundemental misunderstandings between the characters - in the Mnemosyne is unable to actually understand Longinus' objection (until Corbon explained it to me in detail) and Longinus was finding Mnemosyne's rebuttals completely irrelvant (which they were as they failed to address his points, as she didn't understand them). --Perikles 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC) To clarify somewhat on Corbon's points, as far as I can gather: A regione should be considered to have a 5th dimension. It is along this 5th dimension that the layers touch, and it is this touching which creates the boundary. This means that a boundary exists at any point in which two layers overlap in the standard three dimensions, and is in fact a metaphysical boundary which is only measured in the normal three dimension by accident. By seeing this boundary - or some other method - one can effectively move from one layer to another through this 5th dimension, but without neccessarily travelling anywhere in three dimensions, as one is constantly in contact with it, in the form of the regione boundary. The practical effects of this are that it would be possible to move from the 2nd layer of the Mynd regio directly to 1st layer from any point on the 2nd layer, without having to travel to the cloud perimiter. Corbon, please correct this if I have ballsed up your explanation. --Perikles 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC) On the other hand, my view point as reflected by Mnemosyne's responses was taking the line that a regio boundary is actually simply the gate or pathway between the layers, which in this case is manifest as the massive contour line type areas which run around the Mynd. As it is only these areas which are boundaries, we can only see into the next layer with second sight close to these points and we can only travel between the layers at these points. Once at a higher altitude than these contour lines we are unable to see into or pass into the next layer and we are unable to return unless we pass back to the cloud perimiter. In this way the boundaries can be represented as a kind of curtain which can be drawn aside at a certain point and passed through, but when we are distant from the curtain, we cannot do this. --Perikles 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC) About the only real discussion on the matter I was able to find on the web is located at the Atlas Games Forum. A fair amount of the responses seem to simply state, that regiones are strange and different and many of them differ wildly enough for the ST to make up their own rules quite happily. However, while the status of the regione on the Mynd is obviously of key interest to us here, in the interest of playing out our characters' reactions properly, it is important to determine what the standard model of a regio is. Part of the problem is the fact that 'boundary' is not well defined and could just as easily mean the physical area a regione occupies, which would lend credence to Corbon's theory, or it could mean a route, as described by the staircase model, which would support my own. Basicly, it's not very clear.--Perikles 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC) This seems to be the difference between Regio's with a limited number of entry points an Regios with many entry points. From James earlier comments I would expect the answer to be "How many Regios do your character know anything about?" which I think we could reasonably assume would be one different Regio for Mnemosyne and Longinus. My wiew on Regios was something like this: if you get lost in a faery forrest it should not really matter where you happen to be if there is a Regio there you might stumble into it, thus if you can see into it you can pass the border anywhere, on the other hand there is a Regio described somewhere that explicitely can only be entered from the steps in front of houses in that city by someone seeking a lady that currently has a red ribbon in her hair, which fits Mnemosynes wiev rather well. Hmm... Considering the geography of this Regio I would expect Mnemosynes view to be reasonable, since it might be hard to find entrypoints inside the ground or in mid air, excluding burrowing and towers of course. --SamuelUser talk:Samuel 10:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC) :well, since Longinus went back to his pater during the 'extra' month specifically to discuss how Regiones work, your entirely reasonable assumption is in fact incorrect, and hence the necessity to sort out how regiones work generally. And the vertical geography need not be relevant, especially given a medieval style thinking pattern. The summit of the mynd is the summit of the mynd regardless of which regio you are in and exactly how high that summit is. So for example if you are in level 2 standing just below the summit and you pass through to level 3, you don't 'appear' deep in the middle of the hillside, you appear just below the summit (now at a much higher altitude). --Corbonjnl 11:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC) ::Actually, I think the vertical geography is of prime importance in the case of the Mynd as it has been indicated that the boundaries of the next layers only begin at certain altitudes. --Perikles 12:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC) :::I still see no particular relevance. Having the boundaries 'at certain altitudes' is simply an easy way of marking a concentric series of perimeters on a hill - just use contour lines. An particular cartesian coordinate still stays the same between regios, it just changes in altitude. To the medieval paradign that can still be said to be the same place.--Corbonjnl 05:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC) :However, I agree that any particular regio can have any particular way or ways to enter as decided by SG. They are weird and varied things. However, what is important is what Longinus' pater explained to him. In the absence of a good discussion/answer from James, I used the rulebook descriptions. Which unfortunately, make the Long Mynd an unviable option unless all levels have been satisfactorily explored. Worse, even if we explored all remaining levels fully and found no other creatures, would anyone consider it reasonable to have an army of water elementals able to freely avoid any Aegis we create? Not Longinus, that much is certain. --Corbonjnl 11:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC) ::I think an important point here is that your interpretation of the rulebook seems to make the Long Mynd - and in fact pretty much most regios - an unviable site. On the other hand, my interpretation of the rulebook seems to say the reverse. The problem here is an interpretation of the rules - not neccessarily anything about the actual site. --Perikles 12:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC) :::Not at all. If an Aegis on one layer must be 'entered' as one crosses through regiones into that layer, then the Aegis still works fine. This is one of the possibilities Longinus already brought up. Then, as long as the regios have been fully explored and either have no inhabitants or the Aegis perimeter can be designed such that any inhabitants are not 'cut off' (very easy if the inhabitants are on lower levels, could be easy depending on regio shape and geography if inhabitants are on higher levels), there is again no problem. Indeed, arguably my interpretation is more strongly supported by this than yours, as if it was so easy to use regios why wouldn't every covenant, or very many at least, be based in one instead of only a few? Regios offer so many advantages, that fact that the whole Order doesn't base itself in them indicates there are some difficulties as well. :::Our/my difficulties stem from the fact that a) our regiones are not fully explored, b) they have plentiful inhabitants, including sentient species, c) we aren't powerful enough to be confident we are not missing vital information and d) we haven't been around this regio set long enough to observe any seasonal variations either (like the once/yr door between regios at Potters field).--Corbonjnl 05:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Can I suggest we have a SG's ruling on how the regios work before continuing. We're getting to the point where a major OOC difference of understanding of how the game works is breaking the IC aspects of the game, and appears to be forcing players into putting their characters into irresolvably opposed positions. I am not convinced that we will be able to form a covenant and continue the game unless the basic mechanics are agreed, and I will not be taking part further until this is resolved. --OldNick 07:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC) : Personally I think that regiones are supposed to be odd enough they they can work just about any old way. What is really the problem is a-c above, with a touch of d. And the fact that these are being totally ignored by some characters as irrelevant, while other characters think they are critically important. The mechanics of how regios work are only necessary so that the arguments/discussions that result from these issues are able to be made properly (and hopefully resolved). It is perhaps unfortunate that on the one hand we have Longinus who having spotted some major problems is focused on how those problems work rather than addressing them directly. On the other hand, Mnemosyne is (seems) quite happy to ignore them entirely in order to achieve her goals. (Is that a reasonable desciption Perikles? ;-) ) --Corbonjnl 09:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Idle Aegis Question Is it just my campaigns, or is the Aegis mostly useless and never comes into play? My experience has been that the Aegis is rarely of a sufficient level to block most of the things that might actually be attacking the Covenant. I suppose if a covenant were sited in, eg., a faerie forest, then some level of AotH might be neccessary to prevent the SG from imposing a lab penalty due to constant annoyance by low level faeries, but otherwise ... what are others experiences? Just idle questions here ... JBforMarcus 15:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC) : Sounds to me just your campaigns. Orperhaps, rather, the fact that the aegis is there keeps out all the annoying little things that could happen but don't. If it is effective, you don't even notice it working. :-) Put it this way. Can you imagine the devious nastiness James could inflict on us without one? A continual stream of minor, petty demons. Random annoying beasties running amok right when you are in the middle of a complex and dangerous lab experiment. Ghosts bothering the grogs without the magi noticing. The possibilities are endless. I've once, for a single year (ran out of vis) played in a covenant that was Aegisless. It was a very very unproductive and frustrating year. --Corbonjnl 06:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC) :: Agreed. I've never played in a campaign without an Aegis. However, we had a number of small annoying things which would buzz around the outside of the Covenant on a regular basis which we were all very glad could not get in. Minor demons, loud faeries, and giant wasps are all things that our Aegis kept out. True, it did not keep out the witch and her mad Scots mercenaries - but it did stop her casting spells from outside, into the Covenant. It also did not keep out the succubis who one of the magi was tricked into marrying... But the really dangerous stuff will always get in. You can hope that it will at least hamper them and knock 30 points of anything they try and lob in from outside. --Perikles 10:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Longinus' Spells I'm particularly uncertain about the Shape of the Mynd spell. What size should the Mynd area he needs be? Basic quantity for earth etc is 10 cubic paces, which strictly applied makes getting any information at all about any natural topographical formation practically impossible.. Compare this with Voice of Lake (InAq 25) which allows talking to a body of water large enough to have boats on it as an individual, or a group verison of the same spell which would allow a large lake as a group target. Possibly the hill should be a group target (which would eliminate any need for ceremonial casting)? :The target descriptions in the beginning of the spells chapter explicitely states that Intelego spells does not bother about the size of the individual. On the other hand Voice of the lake promptly reverts that. --SamuelUser talk:Samuel 10:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC) The Long Mynd in Miniature CrTe 10 Create a miniature copy of the Long Mynd (area under discussion only) out of clay approximately 3 paces square R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind Base 1 Create Clay, +1 elaborate shape, +2 Voice, +2 Sun, Casting total (Cr 15 + Te 10 + Sta 2 + Aura + DR + Quiet -5)/2 (fatiguing) Finesse 4 (precision) + Int 3/Per 2 + bonus from Shape of Mynd spell? + DR Shape of the Mynd (cast in the days before the meeting, ceremonially) InTe 10(?) Understand the topographical shape of the Mynd in order to later replicate it. R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Ind(? - 'the hill') Base 2, +1 Touch, +X (2-3? Note Voice of Lake InAq 25) Casting total (Int 0 + Te 10 + Sta 2 + Phil 1 + Artes L 1 + Loud 1 + Aura + DR)/2 (fatiguing) The Glass Regio CrTe 15 Create a small area of glass that fits exactly over a portion of a topographical model R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind Base 2 Create Glass +1 elaborate shape (maybe unnecessary) +2 Voice, +2 Sun Casting total (Cr 15 + Te 10 + Sta 2 + Aura + DR+)/2 (fatiguing) :Not had a look any books here, so may well be talking out of my... er hat. However, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that Longinus could have an arcane connection to the Mynd here - a rock he had picked up - and wouldn't this make the spell easier? Hopefully helps. Maybe not. Just a random idea. --Perikles 23:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC) ::I thought so too originally, but how? He is not operating at arcane range and he doesn't need any penetration.--Corbonjnl 06:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Date I see that date of this meeting is now into May, could we get a fixed date for it please. As the other pages have been nicely labelled, it would be good to keep it up. I gather from timeline page that this is happening at some point in May. I forget how long the pulse was due to take - was it 2 weeks or 4? Also, given this meeting is in May, which is still the end of the Spring quarter, I am presuming that the events of Potter's Field, which happen at the Solstice (around June 21st-23rd), will not have actually happened yet. As such, I should probably edit my comments on Potter's Field somewhat. --Perikles 19:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC) :The pulse was due to take 'around a month'. I suggest that as the Potter's Field events take place another month later, that the magi have had either 1) time to return to their origins to gather anything they might need before spending Solstice at Potter's field - thus the meeting is likely 25th-ish June, 2) time to indulge in some additional adventuring - perhaps sorting out the vis sources in Hockestowe (to be played at leisure later?), again meeting date 25th-ish June or 3) early meeting with Potters field events not yet known, meeting 25th-ish May. :I further suggest that several additional characters could be introduced if there is an additional month between pulse and meeting. Such as a few covenfolk, some of the not-yet arrived companions, and especially, a few of the not yet arrived grogs (shield grog anyone?).--Corbonjnl 03:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC) ::This extra month could also give us time to organise a lot of mundane stuff to do with the setting up of the Covenant. Showing out faces around - mostly Marcus probably, but Mnemosyne would not be adverse to popping in for a few Sundays to the Church just to create a bit of goodwill. She can probably do some useful stuff in the way of hiring craftsmen and arranging for provisions and other such stuff. She will happily use her mentem magic to smooth the way and get bargain deals for the Covenant, as well altering any memories which need to be tampered with if needed. She will not however cheat them or do them any damage. In this way while we can have 'stuff' ready to roll the moment we choose a site. I have no idea really what this 'stuff' is, but as long as Mnemosyne does, or another character who can tell Mnemosyne, then that's fine. Gives times to send for any stuff or people from Shrewsbury or further afield as well. Basicly - I like it. --Perikles 13:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC) Answers to Queries Regarding the cottage on the Mynd: As the outward appearance has changed dramatically, and signs of occupation clear, I am presuming that the magi purchase it at some point between fixing it and the fact that it has been fixed being discovered, and broker the deal through one of their grogs using a cover story of some sort. Buying the cottage after the renovations have been discovered will be much more difficult, and there is no point associating Marcus with the cottage if that is not strictly necessary. In short, given the grogs and companions available, I think the characters can solve this fairly easily, so I've not pushed for details. There is the matter of the cottage's appearance being somewhat odd, but maybe you can hide the barrel-vault roof under some thatch or something. :D I'm sure you will think of something. --James 17:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC) Ways to conduct the meeting :"I am interested to see how she will arrange this meeting. Each Magus to report in turn? Each site debated on in turn? A combination thereof? Some other way?" One suggestion - how about the magi take their turn to speak of the site they would like to choose, and the reasons for choosing their site. Once all the magi have spoken, and thus, effectively, cast their provisional votes, the magi can attempt to sway one another towards one position or another. I think we need to establish everyone's rough favourite first. This means that we don't need to worry about certain players being absent for a few days or posting late, as they will return prior to the refutations and counter-arguments and still have the opportunity to present their case. Having said that, I really don't mind what method you use... just trying to kick things off. :D --James 14:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC) : Thank you so much for the helpful suggestion. However, being as the month long pulse is now over, I shall play my own character the way I would like to. Given that the page only opened a couple of days past and the length of hiatus, having a couple of days to get back into things and collect my thoughts as a player without being poked and prodded seems a reasonable thing as well. --Perikles 18:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC) :: That suggestion wasn't directed at you personally. Yes, I don't like the way the game gets tossed about with each storm to hit my life, but the future looks fairly groovy right now. --James 08:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC) How fleet up the run can a running man run if the run is steep Are we meeting at the cottage? That's quite a bit too far for Llewys to have purchased cherries in Church Stretton earlier in the day, isn't it? JBforMarcus 17:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC) ::It's do-able, I reckon, if it's an evening meeting. --OldNick 17:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC) :::Perhaps he and Alicia spent the night at the Inn, made the purchase and came back? :) --Tim 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC) So, all-wise SG:-) how far is it from Church Stretton to the Cottage and given the terrain what is the travel time? JBforMarcus 05:31, 17 October 2006 (PDT) ::Not the SG, but, according to the map I uploaded a couple of months back http://images.wikia.com/arsmagica/images/9/9c/Route_to_Pole_Cottage.jpg it's about a 6km walk - (the sqaures on the map are 1km) - or not much over an hour, perhaps an hour and a half, allowing for the climb. The green dots show the route originally taken from Church Stretton to Pole Cottage, by now we'd be cutting off a few corners. --OldNick 07:33, 17 October 2006 (PDT) A burdened man walks 4km/h from memory, five on a good road, six if unburdened on a good road. I think an hour and a half is probably a tad generous, but as long as he does it in under three hours, it doesn't matter. I daresay he went to the village to do something else of import to the magi which justifies his trip, such as not being in anyone's hair for a good while. :D --James 09:30, 17 October 2006 (PDT) ::Groovy -- clearly I was confused about the distances involved, thinking it was more like 10-12 miles, 16-20 kmish. JBforMarcus 19:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)